{The List} Space

[Herzog]

and space race should have an influence in happiness and vice versa (if anoter, history-enemy nation is winning the space race)

[Robovski]

What's possible is more a matter of will rather than tech for lots of things, like solar power satellites, weapon platforms, asteroid mining, colonies...

But tech makes a huge difference in cost and effectiveness; and some techs are essential - like nanotech for a space elevator - that depend on how likely you thing that technology will mature inside the scope of the endgame.

I'd say a space elevator is about as feasible as a fusion power plant.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by lajzar
Individual people would be hard to spot. An entire division of infantry is hard not to notice for a spy satellite. In zoomed-in mode, modern sats can read car number plates if angled correctly.

Spy satellites, when directed at the Balkans, were fooled by the presence of balsa wood tanks. Detection is not as simple as you would imagine, or at least if you know simple camouflage technics you can circumvent their power.

Having the abilty to read car number plates is a soundbite and not true. Laws of diffraction mean that the maximum resolution of a satellite viewing in near ultra violet with a 2m aperture* is about 0.2m at 350km (the lowest end of Low Earth Orbit). That is, if you ignore all other effects such as defects in optics, atmospheric aberration, the need to see in more than just near ultra-violet or the fact you aren't in a very stable orbit at 350km, a satellite will only see things to a resolution of 10cm. Damn impressive I'll grant you, but no licence plate reader.

Of course the issue isn't being able to see the detail, its being able to see the wood for the trees. Suppose you have 100 satellites that could read one licence plate every second they would take 8 years to read the licence plate of every car in the US alone. Similarly, even if you could theoretically see everything going on in a country, you physically can't have your eyes everywhere at once. There is always going to be things going unnoticed, especially if you understand the limitations of satellites.

*for comparison Hubble's aperture is 2.4m and it cost billions to build.

[slick909]

it's maybe more a theme for an expension, but why not implement real space colonization.
when you progress in space age, you can send a mission to moon and further (as tech progresses) and get another world to conquer, just like earth.
it would again give much land to expand and would only need new graphics, techs, terrain etc.
it think it would make the game more dynamic in later stages.

[Laszlo]

I like the idea of a Satellite unit. Haven't played Conquests (I'm still a Civ2 loyalist) to see how they're implemented, so could someone tell me what they're like in that? Here were my own ideas:

If not revealing the whole world, spy satellites would at least monitor a large swath of it. Perhaps launching several would allow the civ near-complete coverage. I think that they should be one-time use like missiles, but with an actual lifetime--say, 20-30 turns. They could even have a failure rate at launch (Your trireme satellite has been lost at sea in space. ) that decreases with experience. They wouldn't in fact have to be actual units once you pick their placement, though for the sake of familiarity it might be better to keep it as one.

Below, some other ideas on the satellites theme, playing with the possibilities.

-Increasing resolution. Starts out at city and terrain scale, moves up to include roads and rail, eventually allows individual unit tracking. Happens automatically as technology matures (time and experience with building).

-Research Satellites. Whether it's inward (weather & habitat monitoring), or outward (Hubble and Chandra space telescopes), satellites are important for research. They could give a set amount or a small percentage boost to research.

-New Wonder candidate perhaps. The Terrestrial Planet Finder could be required before setting off a colony ship. Wouldn't want to spend all that time and money all to arrive at a barren star, now would we?

-Commercial Satellites. Bonuses to commerce through better communications, GPS technology, etc. Prospecting can reveal new supplies of resources like oil and better managing of resources like fisheries and farms (bonuses limited to bonus tiles, aka - whales, spice, etc).

-Television Satellites. Broadcasting over the world over, satellites help spread the owner's culture. The U.S. spends money to ensure outside news coverage in China and Middle Eastern countries. They can't do anything to stop the "propoganda" other than ineffectual bans on satellite dishes.

-NO Weapons Satellites. I know everybody gets excited about space-based lasers and stuff, but I don't think satellites as weapons make sense to incorporate. Real-life military satellites are many, but they're reconnaisance tools, not weapons. Research into Star Wars-type programs are expensive and haven't been shown effective.

Add to that the fact that laser-equipped satellites capable of taking out stuff on the ground necessarily means that Earth-based lasers could take out the satellite ten times more easily (only one of them is a sitting duck in that situation).

[GePap]

Implementation of a satelite unit should not be difficult at all- in fact, anyone could probalby do it in the current game with a unit that has recon ability, ICBM ability for the unlimited range, but 0 bombardment- now. The one problem might be interdiction, though I have never seen a recon unit shot down.

As for the space race- I still think the current implementation is silly- if only because the idea of an interstellar spaceship carrying tens of thousands of colonists at the tech level of 2000 is patently absurd.

Maybe the grand prize could be to set up a mars base, which is far more probable.

[Tattila the Hun]

Perhaps, a spy satellite could tell, that in certain spot on the globe, there is Something. As tech progresses, one could tell difference between infantry and worker, and further, how many infantry are stacked. Along with other units. Of course, one could build those cardboard tanks, to fool atleast other human players to think certain place is well defended, when it's not. Cheap to build, no maintenance units.

[GePap]

Why make it so complex- simply display all units on the ground ina certain area, even in a City. That is a HUGE benefit and more than enough reason to have such a unit. The limitations should be that it is expensive and late in the tech tree, and you assign it one spot on the map, and that is it- so that you could not reuse a single satelite over and over.

Another possible idea is the GPS system as a small wonder- it could be built after a certain number of satelites are built- then you buld it, and as a consequence you could carry out precision strikes, or conversely, the bombardment power of air units and artillery increase by say 2.

[Laszlo]

I like that idea about the precision strikes, GePap. That's a realistic war benefit, to say something like, "Destroy this city's Temple" to a missile or bombard unit, sort of like the Spy unit's ability in Civ2.

[Admiral PJ]

Land and Space based telescopes would be nice, Radio telescopes can allow the SETI wonder to be built.

Currently hundreds of planets have been discovered outside our solar system using Telescopes, by measuring the gravitational wobble of stars affected by large planets.
I think this could be put into civ4. First from the 18th century you start discovering planets in the solar system, then later as you send space probes to them you gain Scientific Research points from the Physics knowledge discovered (understanding planetary formation, geology, how the earth and universe formed..)

It would also make sense that you need to locate a suitable planet to send your 'Alpha Centauri' Spaceship to colonise.. perhaps there could be a few starsystems to colonise at different distances. Each civ could colonise a separate star system, as its unrealistic 2 civs at war would colonise the same planet ,by the time such startravel tech existed.

Satellites are a must.. remember their communication and Navigational advantages. (GPS location systems)

[Shogun Gunner]

Glad to read these space ideas that don't include bizarre, futuristic techs or objectives.

Spy sattelites(Wernazuma III), multi-staged space race (ixnay), precision strikes (GePap)... I'm very much in favor of these and other similar ideas.

If it's like CtP, I won't like it.

[ixnay]

Bumpity bump now that I have an awesome first post in the thread with actual content.

[MORON]

Can we have SDI sats that stop nukes (with a chance of failure) everywhere or a large region that can be moved on a turn by turn basis?

[Kuciwalker]

Space - a bad idea

[Lambiorix_be]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Space - a bad idea

Space - a good idea

Although I am not yet convinced that space based weapons or even actual space units are needed I do think that space has an important task in civ.

Look at the attention the mars rovers got when they reached Mars. It clearly boosted the morale and national pride. Same for the moon landing...

Also the space race has a lot of civilian spin offs so the 'research tree' so take it into account too. ex. as long as you don't have have build one or two launch pads (as a city improvement or tile improvement but very expensive!) certain research is not available (except via exchanges with other civ that do have a lauchpad).

once you have your launchpad you should be able to build satellites, launch missions to the moon, mars... they all have to be expensive so not every Civ is able to create them independently but some kind of trade is possible. Ex. they can build a satellite but they need to rent your launchpad and rocketbooster...